What’s holding the profession back?

AJ Johnson, Geoff Brown and Calvin Harris share their unique perspectives as African-Americans who lead three of the biggest state CPA societies (respectively, the New Jersey Society of CPAs, the Illinois CPA Society, and the New York State Society of CPAs) on the major challenges facing their members, the primacy of the pipeline problem as an issue, and the role diversity can play in alleviating it — if the profession can find a way to diversify itself.

Transcription:

Dan Hood (00:03):

Welcome to On Air with the Accounting Today. I’m editor-in-chief Dan Hood. Accounting is a people business, and like many people businesses, it has a people problem and specifically it’s not enough of them and not enough diverse representation among them. These are huge issues that have been preoccupying the profession for decades here to talk about them, to talk about the state of profession as pertains to the pipeline problem and to diversity and to a bunch of other issues are the African-American heads of the three state societies. We’ve got Geoff Brown from the Illinois CPA Society. Geoff , thanks for joining us. 

Geoffrey Brown (00:32):

Thanks for having me Dan.

Dan Hood (00:33):

We’ve also got Calvin Harris of the New York State Society. Calvin, thanks for joining us. 

Calvin Harris (00:37):

Thank you. Glad to be here. 

Dan Hood (00:38):

And last but only alphabetically, we’ve got AJ Johnson from the New Jersey Society of CPAs. AJ, thanks for joining us. 

AJ Johnson (00:45):

Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here. 

Dan Hood (00:47):

There’s a huge amount to unpack and given all three of your positions at the heads of some of three of the biggest societies in the country, I wanted to start by asking what are the big issues facing your members? And AJ, since you went last in the introductions, I’m going to let you go first on this one. What are the big issues facing your members? 

AJ Johnson (01:06):

Sure. So the biggest issue at the moment is the pipeline challenge. So we are all concerned about ensuring that we have the talent in the pipeline because we know that that’s an issue. And as people are retiring, we want to make sure that we are able to keep that pipeline strong for the future of the profession. So that’s a big one. 

Dan Hood (01:35):

Huge, definitely, no question. Calvin, how about you? What issues you’re facing, your members? 

Calvin Harris (01:40):

Yeah, I have to reiterate what AJ just said, and I think the pipeline pretty much on all levels, not just those entering, but those in the middle of their career and the entire pipe, so to speak. Just making sure we have enough people and that the profession is relevant to everyone in it. 

Dan Hood (01:59):

Excellent. Geoff, this is your chance to make it unanimous or to bring in other issues. What do you see in facing your members? 

Geoffrey Brown (02:06):

 definitely di the pipeline piece. We’ve been spending a lot of time on talent acquisition, but we’re also focusing on the retention piece because we think that the retention aspect is definitely a huge contributor to what we’re feeling from a talent perspective, and it’s going to be the next frontier. But then I’d also add just grappling with new services in an evolving business model. I mean, if you pull out a little bit, you’ll see that firms are not dealing with the same business issues that they were dealing with two years ago, and they’re all taking an eye to the future to figure out how to structure themselves and be able to focus on the needs of their current future clients. 

AJ Johnson (02:37):

I would just add to that also, we talk a lot about digital transformation. So conversations are being had around ai, artificial intelligence, and we are looking at this. I know firms are paying attention to it, and I think everybody in the profession should be thinking about it from conversations within education and how you leverage AI to using it in your firms. And I don’t see it necessarily replacing people, but I think that as we think about these new models, everyone needs to pay attention to the implications of ai, how it’s being used. So definitely I would add that. 

Dan Hood (03:24):

Well, and when you bring that up in some of the other issues that were brought up, what’s interesting is that is the degree to which they’re often intertwined. I mean, you talk about it’s not going to replace people. It may replace tasks which may ease or exacerbate in weird ways. The pipeline issue, if you’re some tasks are being taken over by technology, maybe that helps you out in terms of less pressure to find staff to do those issues. But at the same time, you’ve got to have people who know how to work the technology. So it creates another recruiting or pipeline issue in terms of do we have enough tech talent coming into the profession? It’s fascinating how much all those issues get tied together. I will say I’m very glad that you all agreed that the pipeline issue is a big one. We’re going to be focusing a lot on that today, and all my questions are related to it one way or another, so that’s a relief that we’re focused that way. But it is something you hear from firms all the time, so I’m not surprised that we brought it up. And Calvin, I want to turn to you and talk about what do you at the society level, what’s New York doing about the pipeline problem or how’s it approaching or how’s it thinking about it? 

Calvin Harris (04:26):

Yeah, I think there are a few things that we’re looking at here in New York State. Part of it is really leaning heavily into our younger members. We have an area, what we’ll consider 40 and under our next gen, and really leaning into that group a little bit more, trying to make sure we’re finding ways for them to be engaged, not just member and name only, but be engaged and even further going back to find more creative ways of connecting with our students. Membership with the New York State Society for Students is complimentary, but we want to make sure that there’s actually something that’s going to hold them in beyond a free membership. So we’re really thinking through ways of doing that. And even going further back than that, we have our high school awareness program, which we’ve had for years to expose students to the accounting profession. A case can be made that high school is not early enough. I certainly was exposed to accounting much earlier than that, but I had a mother who was a bookkeeping teacher, so I had a little advantage there. But I think all along the way, it’s really never too early to start to get people engaged. And we’re looking at all along that continuum here in New York. 

Dan Hood (05:42):

Exposure in the womb is what effectively we’re looking at. It is whatever it works. But it is interesting how often you hear accountants say, I had a relative, my mother, my father, an uncle, the guy next door kind of thing. And how often that’s a huge role in bringing people into profession. Jeff in Illinois, what are you looking at in terms of solving the pipeline problem? I know the society has done a ton of research in the area. How are you thinking about it? 

Geoffrey Brown (06:07):

Yeah, we’re definitely doubling down on some of our research. So we are in the process of reissuing, our decoding, the decline study that was first went out in 20 19, 20 20. And then also we have a study in the field around retention. So those are two big pieces of pipeline that we’re researching. But then to Calvin’s point, just more outreach to raise awareness. We can’t keep going back to the traditional channels or traditional high schools or traditional academic partners and expecting a different result. So that’s one of the things that we’re doing to broaden our perspective, definitely exploring with all of our stakeholders, just alternative pathways to entering the profession, eventually getting licensed. It’s interesting that everybody has a stake in the ground in terms of what they want to come out of this pipeline dialogue. And now we’re trying to arm them with the tools to, here’s what you should be doing, here’s how you can contribute to help us address these issues. 

(06:54)

It’s not just the responsibility of the Illinois CPA society. I think it’s an entire continuum. It’s the society, it’s the firms, it’s individual CPA professionals, the academic community. But then KA was talking about with high schools, we need to go to non-traditional high schools. We can’t just go to the schools with the highest graduation rates. We did a program with CAQA few months ago. We went to a high school on the south side of Chicago, 98% African American, 1% Latinx. These are kids that their parents weren’t CPAs. Their parents don’t work with CPAs. So being able to show them examples of professionals in the field is just really helpful. Just raising that awareness is going to be key for us. 

Dan Hood (07:37):

Alright. AJ, how about you in New Jersey? How are you guys approaching the pipeline? How are you thinking about it? 

AJ Johnson (07:42):

Sure. I would also add to what Jeff said, and Calvin, there’s, we have to create awareness. We obviously know that retention is an issue and it all has to come together. So I see it as the state societies doing their part. But then also we know that A-I-C-P-A has a task force here in New Jersey. We have a pipeline task force at the state society, and it’s made up of a diverse set of professionals, including some of our emerging leaders. And so that group will be developing a plan and making recommendations towards a plan, I should say, for the board, for our board of trustees to consider in December. So we feel that it’s important to act now to think about high school and college strategies as well as any other opportunities for awareness, and also looking at firms and our educators and how they can play a role in all of this in addition to all of our members. 

(08:58)

So we have an engaged membership, and I think our members are really great and they want to help. And every day that I’m talking to our members, they’re saying, what can we do? So I know as a society, we’re looking at just the best ways to help members tell their story as well, because we know that not everyone will, especially the African-American students, Latinx and the Asian younger students as well. All of that matters. And so CAQ, that’s been their focus, right, is on really those populations of demographics. And we know that mentorship plays a role. And if you don’t see teachers who can talk to you about accounting, you don’t have role models and all of that. So there’s a lot of work to be done when you think about the entire pipeline from early on to retirement and actually obtaining your CPA license and then keeping folks in the profession. 

Dan Hood (10:12):

Right. You mentioned the Center for Audit Quality. They’ve been doing a lot of work in this area. You mentioned, we’ve all mentioned some of the AI CPAs efforts, they’ve got pipeline groups, and you’ve all talked about how as societies you’re working on this, but AJ and Jeff, you both mentioned that it’s not just your responsibility or a IPAs or the cqs, right? It’s the members and the member firms. Jeff, maybe you can kick us off here and then aj, I’ll grab you and then Calvin, you can weigh in as well. What can your members do to ease the pipeline problem? Geoff? Like I said, I’ll throw it to you first, but then we’ll go through everybody. 

Geoffrey Brown (10:46):

Yeah, I think there’s a few things that our members can do, Dan. One just helping us to amplify the messages in a community. If you think back, and I was in a small town a few weeks ago, walking down the street, there was the lawyer, there was a CPA’s office, there was an undertaker, but that doesn’t necessarily take place everywhere. So we need them to be representatives of the professions in their local communities talking about the range of opportunities that are available to CPAs. That was one thing that stood out to me when we went down to that high school on the south side, was the fact that these were young people who may have had an impression of what CPAs do, but when we showed them four different examples of the different pathways that people have taken, I think it really opened their eyes. 

(11:26)

So that’s one. I think that members can take stock of their own work environments and think about some of the things that young people are saying to us that are deterrent to them pursuing careers in accounting and figure out ways that they can address those things. So Calvin mentioned the relevancy of the work. That’s one piece, the attractiveness addressing some of the badge of honor from my busy seasons. Those are the types of things that really are starting to resonate with young people as they’re making career choices. So I look at those as things that members can actually control. They can also assist by sponsoring young people. They can serve as a mentor, they can serve as a donor and help us to create scholarship programs because we know that there are barriers to entry related to finances that young people are experiencing, and we can solve some of those through our own efforts. But that’s a direct example of members being able to help us to make a difference. We’re starting a dialogue here in Illinois of what if the CPA endowment fund of Illinois created the conditions where every young person who applied for ACPA exam award scholarship from us received it. Right now, we’re turning away half of our applicants just because we don’t have the availability of funds. 

Dan Hood (12:37):

That’ll be it. I mean, it’s one of those things where you start to realize, well, in some cases there’s an actual application of money might solve this, and who has more money than accountants? Or at least who knows where it is or an account. AJ, you had, as I said, you had mentioned things for your members to do. What are some of the things you think ways they can help? 

AJ Johnson (12:57):

I definitely agree with Jeff. We need to amplify the brand. And I think our members, they’re working, they’re in the profession, they’re passionate about it. So I think they can easily tell the stories of what they’re doing to help companies and their clients, whether they’re in public accounting or corporate accounting and finance, just the impact of their work. So I think that’s really important. I think there are lots of opportunities for members to just participate in their local communities. So if you have an office and you’re a small firm, you’re not too small to go out there and be a part of a program and share your story with high school students and things like that. Also, for the larger firms who they may have more access to resources, you could, I see opportunities to really develop their talent. The emerging leaders as an example, getting them involved in N-J-C-P-A as well as giving them opportunities to be fresh faces, go back to their high schools, share their stories, make those connections, and encourage that so that CPAs are seen throughout the community. When it comes to government, I think that we can all be involved. So whether it’s being a part of a workforce initiative or joining state boards, just thinking about ways in which you can impact local government and keep the issues front and center around STEM and accounting and education, I think also is a way that we can do and not to mention our educators. 

Dan Hood (14:51):

Excellent. Alright. Calvin, thoughts on this? What individual accountants and individual firms can be doing to ease the pipeline? 

Calvin Harris (15:00):

Sure. I may be tripling down if there’s such a thing. They’re good ideas. I think to reiterate a bit, and it might sound overly optimistic, but I think one of the things that members and accountants and CVAs can do in general is to just be positive about how great the profession is. Nobody wants to hear, I mean, I don’t want to hear it about how tough your busy season was. I know how tough it was. We know that, but there’s no glory in trading those kind of stories. And it certainly doesn’t appeal to people who are coming into the profession. I mean, all that can really do is scare someone away. I just don’t think there’s any badge of honor to be earned from that. 

(15:49)

So I mean, every job, of course, and every career has times that are tougher than others. But I see all too often that there’s anything we do amplify. We amplify the tough times versus the majority of the time where accounting is an amazing field to be in. I think also what members can do is to be active with so many things you give when you give back more tenfold, arbitrary number there. But the reality is there are tons of places in the world, whether it’s volunteering, being on boards, not always as a treasurer hopefully, but the skills that CPAs have are in demand and they’re amazing opportunities to be active. And by being active, you actually will amplify the profession as well. And I think you tend to receive something as well. 

Dan Hood (16:44):

And the more you’re seen, and again, we will just declare it. Now, you three have declared it officially a moratorium on war stories or badge of honor stories. I’m going to throw, in addition to the tax season one, we always say how hard the CPA exam was. I took each part 17 times in the snow and uphill both ways. Yeah, it really 

Calvin Harris (17:03):

Did happen for me though. 

Dan Hood (17:05):

Okay, but no one wants to hear it, Calvin, you just said no one wants to hear that story. No. Well, this is the thing. They are difficult. It’s hard thing to say to people, right? Don’t talk about how hard you worked, but everyone’s proud of that, rightly so. Just don’t say it in front of the kids. That’s the real trick there. But those are all, thank you for sharing all those ideas. I think they are all great ideas for both individuals and firms to take out into the world when they’re looking to ease that pipeline problem. There is a specific angle of the pipeline problem that I want to dive into. And we’ve talked a little bit about it perspective. We sort of leaned towards a little bit. We talked about, for instance, the lack of representation in the African-American community of CPAs, right? You look down the street, we said, you see the undertaker and the lawyer and two or three other professions that are pretty well represented, but they don’t see accountants. 

(17:55)

And so I want to dive pretty deeply into DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion and the issues there that in some ways has been an issue, a front burner issue for the profession for longer than the pipeline problem has in some ways. We’ve been talking about it for a couple of decades, and I want to dive into that pretty deeply. But first we’re going to take a quick break, alright, and we’re back and we are talking with the heads of three of the biggest state societies in the country. We’ve got AJ Johnson from New Jersey, Jeff Brown from Illinois, and Calvin Harris from New York, who bring two great perspectives to the topic we’re going to talk about more now, which is they’re all African-American, but they’re also, as I said, represent those three huge societies. So they’ve got sort of a unique advantage on all kinds of issues, but particularly on the issue we’re going to be talking about right now, which is diversity, equity, inclusion, or just diversity or however we want to phrase it. And I want to start by talking about or asking how big a role do we think DEI initiatives can play in solving the pipeline problem? We talked about a lot of different ways to approach the pipeline problem and all the different people who are working on it. What’s the role of DEI and how important can it be? And Calvin, maybe I’ll throw this one to you first. 

Calvin Harris (19:07):

Sure. Yeah, I think it’s hard to understate how important DEI should be. Ideally that should be embedded in organizations and it should be a natural thing that occurs all too often. It’s not, which is why I think it’s so critical to make sure that we maintain and amplify DEI programs. Certainly a number of years ago, there was just a few years ago, there seemed to be an amplification and more visibility and it seems to have died off in some cases. And I don’t think we can afford to let that happen. And it’s too critical. And if I could just, you’ve got the three of us here, but we’re all relatively new in our roles. For a long time it was just one person who just retired Ralph Albert Thomas. And the reality is we haven’t seen the growth in the profession from if you just come from a pure number standpoint that anyone would like. 

(20:17)

But that’s not because there hasn’t been effort. And it’s not because there haven’t been amazing programs. It’s because I would think, and I would say the challenge of DEI in the accounting profession, it’s different. So the things that may work in some communities may very well be different in communities of color. Not worse, not better, but different. So some additional approaches are needed, just as Jeff had talked earlier about the need to go to different schools, for example. That’s a part of it. I’m a proud product of an HBCU, but many HBCUs don’t receive that much attention. There’s a huge population of accountants there. So it’s a different approach. So I think it’s, well, as I ramble on a little bit, it’s just critical to make sure that we keep those programs going because that is also a huge part of our pipeline. 

Dan Hood (21:17):

Well, and you raise a fascinating 0.1, which is there’s a certain amount of, I don’t want to call it just service, but there’s a degree to which when you push put everything under DEI, all these different communities, people tend to say, well, just one in one answer will fit all. And obviously they won’t. The accounting profession is roughly 50% female at the moment, at entry level, certainly. But they’re not represented the way they should be at the partnership level, whereas many other communities aren’t even represented at the entry level. So there’s different issues for different communities, and there is a tendency to lump them all under the DEI rubric, which raised, as you said, the point of the need for approaching everybody with a one size fits one kind of approach. AJ, how do you see the role of DEI initiatives in solving the pipeline problem? 

AJ Johnson (22:03):

I think that we have to address DEI in order to solve the pipeline problem, we need to bring the relevancy of accounting to everyone. And accounting still remains the language of business. So if we want that strong pipeline, we have to create that awareness from the very start with African-American students, Latinx, you name it. We have to make that known that there is a path towards becoming a, getting your degree, and then also becoming ACPA, not to mention the opportunities to impact change within your community and whether you’re supporting clients and helping them, whatever that environment is, you can work in different industries and accounting. I think we really have to share that story. And speaking of the progress, I thought it was really interesting that you mentioned 50% of females are in accounting coming in, but we also have to think about retention, right? 

(23:21)

And all of the strategies and opportunities to really bring forth the value of being ACPA, whether it’s in public accounting or you go off as a sole practitioner, it all matters. And one thing that I would say about DEI is that we haven’t really moved the needle that much over the past 25 years, but I think that today it’s really important that we look at ways to implement whatever we’re talking about. We have to go beyond just having the conversations now because really the business case for diversity, equity and inclusion, it’s now, if we don’t step back and understand the value of inclusion, guess what our young people are telling us that they’re looking for inclusive work environments. So all of that matters for the business case as well. 

Dan Hood (24:30):

And there are plenty of other places they can go work. There’s lots of other industries that would love to hire people who have an accounting mindset or have the kind of mindset that makes you a good candidate for accounting. Geoff, what are your thoughts on this? In terms of the role of DEI in solving the pipeline issue, 

Geoffrey Brown (24:47):

Dan, I think it’s going to be an incredibly huge part of our pipelines, solving the pipeline issues going forward. I think AJ and Calvin definitely pointed out some key areas of things that we can do through our Mary T. Washington Wiley program, we’ve identified a couple of things that need to happen structurally from within the profession to help ’em enable our growth. In DEI, AJ mentioned that the environment isn’t that diverse when young people are coming into the field and they’re one of a few that makes it a little bit more challenging. I think each of us is probably walked into one of those rooms and you’re counting faces. Can you imagine doing that as part of your professional life every single day? The inclusivity piece of it is huge as well. And it goes beyond just race, ethnicity, gender. We’re talking about young people that may not have gone to one of the top tier accounting schools yet they’re sitting next to someone who did. 

(25:38)

Those lived experiences are very different. And so we need to make sure that that mindset pervades the entire organization so that people are aware of what that causes. Mentorship is huge. We need to make sure that those opportunities are available both within the firms, within the corporate finance teams, but then also on the external. I think those external mentors are the people that can help grease the skids a little bit, maybe help you talk through some of the sensitive issues that you might not maybe be dealing with professionally. We’ve also found that people from diverse backgrounds don’t feel like they get timely, relevant, direct feedback on their performance. And that’s often related to the fact that the person who’s giving them the feedback may not have the cultural competencies to be able to do so. So they’re apprehensive about being honest, direct, and respectful, which delays the development or could delay the development on some of those younger professionals from diverse backgrounds. And then I talked a little bit about the education piece. So we need to make sure that young people have the tools and the skills coming in so they don’t get unfairly compared to their peers in those same classes that may not have the same backgrounds as they do. So t are just a couple of things that we need to address structurally within the profession to help enable some of our GI work that’s going to contribute to the pipeline issues. 

Dan Hood (26:54):

Excellent. Now, AJ, you had mentioned right, that you just talked about the fact that the profession’s been talking about it for a long time and hasn’t really moved the needle that much. You’ve been in the profession for a while, and Calvin, you’ve been as well. So I want to get your thoughts on this as well. What sort of progress? I mean, it sounds like you’re not seeing anywhere near the progress we should have or that I think a lot of people would agree. The number of people who said, we haven’t really moved the needle very much is a pretty large number. Have you seen any progress or what kind of progress have you seen, if any? 

AJ Johnson (27:27):

I would say that there are a lot of conversations happening now, and I can tell you that the conversations are great because at least people are talking about it. If they weren’t convinced why DEI mattered 10 years ago, maybe they understand the business case for it and the fact that we need talent in the pipeline and with the number of retirements. And when you look around, if you are a firm leader and you’re trying to retain your talent, you need to think about diversity, equity, and inclusion and all of those things. And for the first time, we’re seeing all generations basically working together. And so you can be next to a 40 and under, but then we have folks coming up and developing and becoming managers and their seven to 10 year, whatever the case may be. And so this is really important as we think about shortages and human capital and what that means to your firm or your company. I think it’s just right now, everything is kind of converged together where you have to pay attention to it, whether you want it to or not. 

Dan Hood (29:03):

Gotcha. That makes a lot of sense. Calvin, you’ve been in the profession for a long time. Does that as assessment resonate with you in terms of progress or lack thereof in terms of diversity? 

Calvin Harris (29:14):

Yeah. No, you said it right. And I have been in a long time. I used to have hair on my head and everything, but I do think there’s been movement. I just don’t think, and I’ll say it for me personally, the movement hasn’t been as fast as anyone would like. I’m a past national president of Napa, and I’m the same age as napa, so I’ll let you do the math on how that makes me. And if you look at the percentage of growth of black CPAs, for example, since Navajo is founded, you see huge growth in terms of that sort of comparison. But if you look at it as a percentage of the population, you see, it doesn’t come anywhere near what we see in census numbers. So I admittedly hate to think of where we’d be if it wasn’t for organizations like Daba and Alpha and Ascent to keep pushing the needle here. 

(30:07)

So I think there has been movement. It’s just, I’ll admit, even when you’ve been around it so long, you’re like, gosh, how long is it going to take for us to actually to get there? So I think in so many cases, and I’m certainly guilty of this, it’s impatience, but if we look back, we absolutely have made enormous strides in the what, 101, 102 years since the first black CPA in the United States. I think the concern ends up being, have we moved fast enough? And how much faster could we really go if we do the things that it would need to really make the profession as relevant, as open as we’d all want it to be? 

Dan Hood (30:46):

Well, there’s a certain amount, it’s got to be a certain amount of frustration in the, particularly as everyone’s now, everyone’s whining about the pipeline problem. It’s like, well, if you’d listen to us about the diversity problem 20 years ago, we might have, I don’t think it might have solved the problem, but we’d have a much smaller pipeline problem, certainly. So there’s got to be some frustration on that front. Geoff, I want to turn to you because come into public accounting fairly recently. All three of you come into your positions recently, but AJ and Calvin have been long time veterans of the profession of accounting. But Geoff, you are come to us from financial planning, ran association over there. Can you talk about how accounting compares in terms of diversity to the financial planning word? There are a lot of, I don’t want to say similarities, but I’ll go ahead and say similarities between, right? It’s generally, it’s a lot of smaller firms or that’s just my impression of financial planning is it’s smaller firms. They’re financial services providers, they’re professionals to a certain degree. They’re not CPAs and that’s their fault. But there’s a similar sort of small firm practitioner core base there and all that sort of thing. How would you compare ’em and are there any lessons that financial planners can teach accountants in terms of diversity, I should say? 

Geoffrey Brown (31:56):

And I think that’s a good observation, Dan. Just the spread of firm size, business size, that sort of thing. One of the challenges that I feel like we ran into in the financial planning world was getting smaller firms to understand that one, there’s an opportunity for them to also impact what we’re doing from ADEI perspective. These are firms that may never hire another person if they do, it’s few and far between, but they also have an opportunity to help us with telling the story of the profession, hosting interns, mentorship, things of that nature. Financial planning was a little bit later to the game when it came to focusing on DEI, but I think because of the fact that there aren’t as many players, and I say that in terms of organizations with a vested interest, it has made coordinating things a little bit easier. This is one of those areas where I don’t see any of us competing. We each run state societies. I don’t ever feel like I’m in competition with New York or New Jersey when it comes to DE. I think we’re all in this together. So that was one of the lessons that I learned from financial planning is what put aside the parochial interests, but just know that as you’re telling the story, creating opportunities, making the profession more welcoming and more inclusive, we all have a responsibility and a role to do it, and we’re not doing it in competition with anyone else. So I think that that makes us able to share resources, to share messaging on what’s worked to approach problems in a similar fashion. I know if I have an issue, I can pick up the phone and call AJ or Calvin and say, let’s talk through this. Especially as it comes to dealing with members who may not be on board with our DEI focus, because that is something that we’re going to encounter from time to time, especially in this day and age. And so just that ability to share resources, share information, approach the problem collectively. I think that’s probably the biggest takeaway from how financial planning is approached it to what’s going to need to happen here in the CPA world. 

Dan Hood (33:47):

Calvin?

Calvin Harris (33:47):

And really, I just wanted to cosign or amplify what Jeff just said. I think it’s critically important to note that partially because we all have individual state boards of accountancy, there’s some degree of separation, but that’s really it. I see a key part of my role is in not just representing New York state, but really representing the profession. So I have a deep desire to make sure that all of my colleagues are successful. I want us all to be successful because that’s what’s good for the profession, and we all talk with each other very frequently. I mean, there are ongoing text strings and email strings that they go back pretty far because there is a deep desire to really move the needle on things here. 

Dan Hood (34:44):

Well, and it’s worth a lot of this, some of the messaging on this in the profession is to talk a lot about a business case for things, because it gets away from some of the more tranent elements. It’s easier to say, it just makes good business sense. But so when you talk about those sort of basic facts, you run into things. It’s an incredibly mobile world. We live in a very mobile profession. That may be someone who’s a member in Illinois in two years, might be a member in California, and two years after that may be a member in, I was trying to think of one of the weirder ones, like American Samoa. But there’s a tremendous movement, and the notion that the profession can in any way be balkanized is not. Does that make sense? And Jeff, to your point, even at small firms that may never hire again, they can have an impact and it will make a difference for them if the profession as a whole is getting this kind of diversity. Let’s just start trying to figure out two things, maybe one, why it hasn’t, why aj, to your point, you talked, there’s been a lot of conversations, but we haven’t necessarily moved the needle. Maybe we talk a little bit about what’s holding us all back or what’s holding the profession back, or maybe why the efforts that have been going on before haven’t necessarily worked as well. And then we’ll move on to talking about what people can do to move the needle going forward. AJ, any thoughts on what’s holding us back? 

AJ Johnson (36:07):

I just think that while we can have great progress in our own states, I think that as a profession, we need to really amplify DEI. And I know that that could be a challenge for some, but I think if we’re going to be honest about where we are with our pipeline concerns and challenges that we have to really be open and continue to push DEI forward because we need to bring in talent. We need to bring the value of accounting to young people who haven’t necessarily been exposed to accounting or anyone who’s ACPA or they just haven’t had that exposure to also thinking about more inclusive environments. And I’m glad to see the efforts. There’s the employee resource groups, ERGs and other things where firms and companies are really paying more attention to it. So I’m glad to see that, but I think collectively as a profession, we have to continue to amplify DEI. And yes, there’s a business case for it, but also if you want to be a strong firm, strong company, you have to consider the differences and it makes sense. And we’re at a critical time where we’re experiencing challenges in the pipeline, and it’s just important to be open, honest about it and then to address it. 

Dan Hood (37:58):

Makes a lot of sense. Calvin, when you look around, what are the things you see maybe keeping us from moving forward as much as we should? 

Calvin Harris (38:05):

Yeah, A number of those things that AJ said really, really resonate. I mean, first I would like to say we still love you America Samoa, but Oh yeah. And that was 

Dan Hood (38:16):

Not a dis at American Samoa, 

Calvin Harris (38:22):

But all jokes aside, I think some of it’s just sticking with it and it’s tough, and sometimes we get in our own way when it comes to these things and DEI or diversity in all of its types. It’s not a flavor of the month sort of thing. It’s something that should be embedded in organizations. They’re countless examples, countless studies that talk about the business case for that. I don’t think we even have to reiterate that anymore. It should be a given. So really it comes down to, I think in some cases for reminding folks that diversity is not about, or it’s not about making choices. It’s about, and it’s about opening everything up. The reality is even if we didn’t have a pipeline issue, we should be thinking about it as, and to grow the profession that we have, a pipeline issue should make this an even more obvious thing that we should be looking at. So it’s unfortunate that in some cases, we even have to use the phrase, the business case for diversity, because in my mind, it’s already been made. It’s just a matter of do we have the will to do it and the stomach to take the time to do it. Right. 

Dan Hood (39:31):

Well, it’s interesting. One thing you talk about, there is a certain time element to this because there is a certain generational aspect of it. Certain it is not the most important, but there’s a degree if we’re talking about you’ve got to reach kids when they’re 10, that means you’ve got to wait 20 years before they can become a partner or something like that. And we talked about women coming in. If women started coming in large numbers in the late nineties, it’s going to be 10, 15 years before they could become partners even in an accelerated pace. But I don’t want to overestimate that thing, but there is a degree to which that plays into this. But Geoff, what are your thoughts on this in terms of what may have been holding us back? You come in, as I said, from financial planning, you have a little bit of a fresh eye, fresh perspective. Any issues you see there? 

Geoffrey Brown (40:14):

Yeah, I agree with everything that AJ and Calvin shared. The one thing that has struck me is the disconnect from firm and corporate leadership to that line manager, line partner that’s actually supporting and working with the individual from a diverse background. It’s great if the messaging is there at the top, but if it’s not making its way all the way through the organization, then that means that individual from a diverse background is probably not going to be supported in an appropriate way, and it’s going to inhibit the diversity efforts of the burn and ultimately the profession. Think about the fact that there are employee resource groups, but a young person who is involved in employee resource group that’s in addition to their work work, which in some cases can inhibit their ability or interest in taking something on diving in and deeply, if there’s a touchy subject that they want to talk about that they feel like is affecting them because of their background, it may be difficult for them to talk about it in that employee resource group because they don’t know who they can trust potentially. 

(41:13)

I think that’s one issue. We’ve been talking about this here for the last few months in Illinois. I was just really thinking about expanding our diversity focus. We’ve been talking about race, ethnicity, gender, the things that you can see, but what are the conversations that need to be happening around some of the other elements of diversity? We had a group of department chairs in over the summer for an annual academic meeting, and one of them raised their hand and asked if we knew of any firms in Illinois that were creating spaces for individuals from neurodivergent backgrounds. That’s an element of diversity that you could have no idea that is affecting someone or that they’re dealing with yet. We need to broaden the focus and be able to make space for those types of conversations as well as we’re looking to the future. 

Dan Hood (41:59):

That’s a great point. We talk about the groups we already understand that aren’t represented enough being all sort of put together under one rubric of DEI, but the more we look at it, the more we realize there’s all these other communities that need to be represented. Neurodivergent people, people from different economic backgrounds. People even talk about geographic diversity being occasionally an issue. So it is an issue that’s only going to get larger, and I’m going to say we’re going to solve it right now. I’m going to ask this. My last question is, what’s the one thing you would like to see the profession do to solve diversity from, no, I’m kidding. Not to solve it, but what’s the one thing you’d like to see the profession do? I was going to say give us all of your ideas, but let’s pick one. Pick your favorite idea that you think would really be the one that could move the profession forward. We could talk about this for, we could go through solutions for a good four to five days, but I’m going to limit you to just one. Your favorite idea for enhancing, for moving the needle. Put it that way in terms of diversity in the accounting profession, and AJ, I’m going to put you on the spot for this one first. What would you think? If you had to pick one thing, what would it be? 

AJ Johnson (43:02):

I would probably pick sharing our story, sharing stories, positive stories about the profession, showing the impact that you can have and the fact that you could come from, you could be an inner city kid and you can have amazing impact in the profession, and you can work in any industry. I think that that’s something that I would do. I think that would really get the interest and the awareness of young people. So that’s something that I would start out knowing that the trajectory might be 10 to 15 years out between a time you speak to someone and they graduate. But if you get that level of excitement and passion, we can, I think, move the needle. 

Dan Hood (43:59):

Excellent. Well, as they say, right, best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago or today, so get the message out there. Good one. Geoff, how about you? If there was one thing you could do or you would like the profession to do at any level, state society level, individual, firm level, wherever, what’s one thing you’d like to see the profession do to move the needle forward? Yeah, I 

Geoffrey Brown (44:16):

Think we just need a little bit more to talk about representation within the profession. I think it’s the less talked about dimension of the work that we’re trying to do from ADEI perspective. We all talk about the number of scholarships that we’re going, but we’re not highlighting our best and brightest in the most effective fashion. There are so many individuals, partners, managing directors, all throughout the profession that we could be highlighting as examples of individuals from diverse backgrounds that have made it, they’re thriving, they’re making a difference, and just helping to tell those stories in a more effective fashion will really paint the picture for young people about, you know what? I can have a career in a county and I can ultimately become ACPA regardless of my background. There’s a managing partner from a big four firm here in Chicago who likes to say that your origin does not determine your destination. And I think the more that we highlight that for young people, I think it’s going to make this a more attractive and relevant career field for them.

Dan Hood (45:17):

And we’ve got to leverage the success stories we’ve had so far to get the message out. That’s a great, great, great point. Calvin, you get to bat last at this one. What’s the one thing you’d like to do? 

Calvin Harris (45:27):

Yeah, I think relevancy of the profession is one of, if not our biggest issues. So I do think that getting our stories out there more prominently at all levels is critical because when you feel that the profession is relevant to you, whether you’re entering the profession already in the profession, hopefully not thinking about leaving the profession, but if it feels relevant to you, then you’ll form a stronger connection. So along the same vein, really getting our stories out there much more effectively. 

Dan Hood (46:02):

Excellent. Alright. I get to vote too, because I have been stealing ideas from you all throughout this podcast from all three of you. So my vote is going to be the flip side of that, getting the message out, which is a blanket ban on war stories and horror stories, and how hard the CBA exam was and how hard we worked. That’s my vote. It’s not as positive as your ideas. It’s not as forward looking and as optimistic, but that’s my thought. But in the meantime, as I said, we could talk about this for hours and hours, but I think this has been a great start and I want to thank you all AJ Johnson and Calvin Harris and Jeff Brown. Thank you so much for joining us and for sharing your insights. We appreciate it.

AJ Johnson (46:38):

Thank you. 

Geoffrey Brown (46:38):

Thank you. 

Dan Hood (46:39):

Cheers. And thank you all for listening. This episode of On the Air was produced by Accounting Today with audio production by Kevin Parise. Rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform and see the rest of our content on accountingtoday.com. Thanks again to our guests, and thank you for listening.